Manosphere vs. Zynternet
Bro Populism
This week we are looking into a popular narrative that has recently emerged online and in legacy news outlets. If we are going to base our analysis of the election results on the influence of alt-media, we should be clear about what those internet subcultures are and be fully aware of their political goals.
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I recently appeared on PBS NewsHour (Nov 25, 2024) to discuss young men’s overwhelming support for Donald Trump. Since the election, there’s been a lot of media attention on “the Manosphere”. Its important to recognize that this term has shifted meaning within the past 8+ years. Many headlines with this label are more so referring to what journalist
calls “the Zynternet”.What was the Manosphere?
From 2016 and earlier, the Manosphere referred to a corner of the internet that included pick up artists and other reactionary voices who made an anti-enlightenment critique of women’s liberation. In these spheres, dating strategies and large scale behavioral patterns were taken to indicate that beneath our polite and liberal society exists a natural order that is deeply rooted in biology. Through understanding these natural laws, our rational minds could be “hacked”. Dating tactics allowed one to skillfully manipulate women (and people in general) to produce desired outcomes like sex or social advancement. Internet culture writer and friend of the podcast,
, has an important interview with one of the original voices from this space, Ross Jefferies of Seduction.com.The early Manosphere was mostly about getting laid and working out. But among these creators were certain voices who had an explicitly political critique. Essentially, they argued that social equality and women’s presence in the workforce had undermined traditional society. This had upset “the natural order” and was now responsible for a rising epidemic of sexless young men. In fact, it had produced lonelier outcomes for people in general. Eventually, the diffuse political block that grew out of this subculture was a project to reverse women’s liberation as a solve for the social ills of today.
What is the Zynternet?
In contrast, the Zynternet is a loose ecosystem of conservative-ish but largely apolitical entertainers that appeal to young men. This includes content like comedy clips, sports betting, hot girls, light beer and Zyn nicotine pouches (who are not yet a sponsor of this newsletter but my DMs are wide open).
The Zynternet includes many popular podcasts that are not at all political and reach audiences in the tens of millions. Among them we might include: The Nelk Boys, Theo Von, Logan Paul or Adin Ross, who are all male podcasters that interviewed Donald Trump in the week leading up to the election. All of these content creators were personally thanked by the campaign while on stage during their acceptance.
But there is an important distinction to be made here. We should not allow the Zynternet to be conflated with earlier definitions of the Manosphere. I spoke about this topic with writer
on a recent podcast:The Zynternet with Max Read
Max Read joins me to discuss "the Zynternet", a newly emergent online youth subculture. We explore the For-You-Pagification of social media, the revenge of the normies and the future of online subcultures.
If you are Read-maxxing, you can read Max Read’s original piece here. (I challenge you to say that five times fast.)
I also spoke with journalist
for the Power User podcast on Vox Media. Taylor brought up an important point that declining economic circumstances in the US have driven people to seek out entrepreneurial activities online. Much of this male oriented content is adjacent to dropshipping tutorials, online scams and other pursuits of wealth and passive income. We often forget to ask: “Why, in the richest country in the history of the world, can people not find dignified work that pays a living wage?” This is the class perspective that the Harris campaign was unable or unwilling to address. Young men, like all workers, are shifting away from the Democratic party. Democrats don’t need a “liberal Joe Rogan”, they need to represent the interests of American workers.
The Hazard
If the media now chooses to conflate “the Manosphere” and “the Zynternet” they will make the same mistake as they did eight years ago when they were calling everything “Alt-Right”. While gradations of radical politics exist within these spaces, you simply cannot say that winning the popular vote is because most people are anti-modernity reactionaries. Insofar as mainstream media chooses to pursue this angle, they will demonstrate that their institutions are no longer seeking the truth and do not deserve to be saved.
I talked about this conflation of terms and more on KQED Forum, an NPR station in San Francisco:
This is a live radio segment and the interview questions lay out a clear interpretation of events. I push back on this analysis and reframe the conversation. Based on the comments on socials afterwards, it seems to have made an impact.
By failing to differentiate between these two spheres, Manosphere and Zynternet, we embolden and amplify the most reactionary elements within them. If far-right ideologues can claim to be in the same “Manosphere” category as popular normie podcasts, and the maintsream media confirms this narrative, we lay a dangerous groundwork. It allows the far-right to claim that it represents vast swaths of the American public. This is in fact what the media is saying.
Contrary to this emerging narrative, access to abortion was overwhelmingly popular across the country, even in states where Donald Trump won by large margins. If we fail to differentiate between these online spheres we will miss the key insight: most people are culturally centrist but open to any change that disrupts the political establishment. Come to think of it, that sounds a lot like the political constituency of a certain candidate from a few years ago… Perhaps a charming old man from Vermont who would have won?
There is an opening right now to coin a new term that describes the male audience of big alt-media channels. The Zynternet is largely apolitical and the Manosphere has deeper reactionary roots. There is a media eco-system emerging between these two poles that is anti-establishment and presently in support of Trump. We might just call this populist media or we can call it Bro Populism if we want to get fancy. Most importantly, this audience is politically independent and not aligned to any specific party. Remember, Joe Rogan was himself a Bernie supporter only four years ago. Now, as Democrats are left wondering why they can’t win the votes of young men, we might recall the endless disparaging comments and attacks upon “Bernie Bros” and the DNC’s strategic sabotage of the candidate they supported. Is it any wonder why many young men are now choosing to vote in the other direction?
Election Debrief
Lastly, I’m linking my video interview with Richard Hames from Novara Media. We cover a wide array of topics and forecast what comes next. We zoom out from the topic of young men and explore the larger political realignment that is happening across society:
If you’re still catching up on Doomscroll you can find the audio on: Apple, Spotify and everywhere else.
Good and important distinction here, Josh.
To add to Katherine's comment and get more memetically granular: the PUAs (Ross Jeffries, David DeAngelo, Mystery, and RSD Tyler, in that chronological order) predate the original manosphere, which arose during Obama’s first term. The PUAs were “AFCs” (average frustrated chumps) who learned “game” (becoming more attractive to women) through techniques, mindsets, and approaches (in clubs and streets). The manosphere consisted of the three R’s: Roosh, Rollo, and Roissy (then Heartiste). The manosphere evolved from PUAs, advocating masculine self-help (lifting, no fap, etc.) and proposing political and theoretical reasons for asymmetries in the “sexual marketplace” (aka explanations for why they were losing in it). Andrew Tate is about 10 years behind these guys and is basically the “final product” of that lineage.
Other "memetic tribes" were running parallel to the original manosphere: MRAs, MGTOWs, incels, etc. They were not a unified camp and often criticized each other. I’d say the throughline between them all is that, at their core, they agreed theoretically on the problem of them losing in the sexual marketplace but differed on the solution. Another throughline, however, is that they all existed on a spectrum of resentment to hatred toward women.
Like you say, the Zynternet is a different beast. Classic bros—“naturals” in PUA language (i.e., naturally good with women), indifferent to politics, and open to both right and leftist ideas—like Joe Rogan. They lack the theoretical aspect of the manosphere’s meme-tribe constellation but also lack the resentment and hatred as a central aspect of their vibe. If the media conflates these two groups, they’ll just end up hating the media and the political establishment they believe is influencing it ("the left"). This will also encourage the two groups to collide and cross-pollinate, which is already happening.
I do think there is a throughline between the manosphere and the Zynternet, which is:
A) An emotional (and spiritual) longing for brotherhood (often unfulfilled).
B) A focus on having their best interests in mind or at heart, either theoretically or intuitively, while having zero interest in virtue signaling as a “Good Person” for other demographics.
If one cannot offer A or B to Bro Populists (or what I am calling Bropolitics), they will lose this group.
I think we’re probably finally ready for more granular differentiation - I’d go a step further and say the manosphere isn’t even really the far right either - but ppl who made the necessary distinctions you’re making here were branded as fascists… the all one thing frame forces strange bedfellows together. I think it’s a deliberate move. I dunno. I am hopeful you can make headway & from what I heard about it (haven’t read it yet) black pill was good on this front too, but it’s rough out there for people who want to untangle the web of subcultures that make up the very diverse online right and its adjacent spheres